00:00:00: Hi there, my name's Usheen Nani and welcome to Audio Talks presented to you by Harman where we explore the future of music, culture and technology.

00:00:08: and today we are diving into the new world of live performance where holograms share the stage with real musicians where AI and XR blur the lines between the physical and the digital and where audiences are redefining what it truly means to experience music live.

00:00:23: Joining me today is Victoria Hesketh better known as Little Boots, singer, songwriter, producer and one of the amazing founding musical performers for ABBA Voyage, the groundbreaking concert where the legendary band was reborn as digital abatars.

00:00:38: We are going to talk about what it was like to perform alongside holograms, how that experience has shaped her creative vision and what she thinks the future of concerts might look and feel like.

00:00:48: Victoria, welcome to the podcast.

00:00:50: It's great to have you here.

00:00:51: Hi, it's great to be here.

00:00:52: Thanks very much.

00:00:54: OK, let's start with a really obvious question from my side.

00:00:58: of the most ambitious concert productions ever, namely ABBA Voyage.

00:01:03: Now, when you first heard what the concert was, what the project was, holographic avatars performing with a live band, what was your initial reaction?

00:01:11: It was wild.

00:01:13: You know, you have to just suspend your disbelief and get on board with the idea that this is going to be a concert without a band, or at least without the band that you were there to see.

00:01:24: And just, you know, psychologically, especially as a musician and an artist, that's quite a strange thing to get your head around.

00:01:32: But what's been incredible is to see that actually, you know, audiences don't care if it's real.

00:01:39: They care if it feels real.

00:01:40: That's what they care about now.

00:01:42: And it was the same for us.

00:01:44: And being a part of that journey and that show coming to life through these incredible songs and this incredible story.

00:01:50: That's what resonated both as a performer and as a fan, which I am.

00:01:54: an audience member, which I was because I must have watched it at least ten times as well as playing in it about three hundred times.

00:02:01: And it's that emotion and that journey.

00:02:03: And this space is something I've always been fascinated in where, you know, the digital meets the human, the tech meets the emotion.

00:02:10: And it's that intersection where the real magic and connection happens.

00:02:14: And that's what I'm really excited about in the future of life.

00:02:17: Fantastic.

00:02:18: We absolutely have the best of the best.

00:02:21: possible people here to talk about the future of live music because you've seen it from so many different perspectives, including one of the most innovative and progressive live shows ever put on.

00:02:29: But for any listeners and our viewers on YouTube, hello, hello, if they haven't seen the show, could you possibly paint a picture of what it's like on stage?

00:02:38: So you mentioned there you're performing alongside digital versions of ABBA while a real audience is completely immersed.

00:02:46: in the experience.

00:02:47: What is it like?

00:02:48: Yeah, I mean, there was this incredible quote by Ludwig, one of the show's producers before it had opened, which was something like it's a, you know, a crazy space synth church to ABBA or something, which it was kind of accurate.

00:03:03: Space Circus Laser Church or something, which is kind of the most accurate description still I've ever heard.

00:03:09: But it's an immersive concert.

00:03:11: It's a digital experience.

00:03:13: It's is an ABBA gig.

00:03:15: At moments, you were watching ABBA in the seventies and you could be there.

00:03:19: At moments, you're watching ABBA in the future and you feel like you're in some kind of Blade Runner, you know, version of the future soundtrack by Mamma Mia, which sounds dreamy and is.

00:03:31: It really is a journey, it's a concept, but it's a story and I think the narrative and the emotion is what has made it such a success and resonate with audiences so much because of course the songs are brilliant, it's ABBA.

00:03:45: The songs are amazing but it's the story and the emotion and how they've utilized this incredible technology we have and just supercharged it with emotion so that you cannot go to that show and not connect.

00:04:00: I've sent people who hate ABBA.

00:04:02: I couldn't believe they exist, especially not in my phone book, but some did.

00:04:05: And I have sent people who let's not say hate, let's say disliked ABBA or thought they did and came back crying.

00:04:13: You know, it's about the journey and the emotion that it takes you on.

00:04:16: And so it's very difficult to explain and a little sound by what the show is like.

00:04:20: But it is like going to see ABBA, but a past, present and future version all at once in this custom built stadium.

00:04:28: ABBA themselves are, I think the name they use is ABATARS.

00:04:31: They're a digital, it's not a hologram.

00:04:34: It's some kind of digital, very clever projection which has been made from actual footage of them performing covered in tiny cameras and then being re-edited with different footage and using this crazy technology to scan all these photos and videos to make a kind of new skin for them and that then they kind of did this like mad mashup of all these different takes and ideas.

00:04:56: So it's kind of like the original ABBA performing but supercharged with this future power.

00:05:03: so it really is future nostalgia.

00:05:05: and yeah you get taken through.

00:05:07: you know all the big hits.

00:05:09: this journey of visual journey and audio journey.

00:05:11: there's all sorts of different effects lighting film being used.

00:05:15: it's a very immersive experience.

00:05:17: I just have to tell people to go and see it because you can't quite explain it and Any naysayers that say, oh, I'm not spending that much on a ticket for a band that's not there, will come out with a changed mind.

00:05:30: And it's utterly convincing.

00:05:31: If you were sat in the middle in the perfect position, and you weren't told, you would believe they were there, I think, or you would believe somebody was there.

00:05:41: Amazing.

00:05:41: My goodness.

00:05:42: Well, to be honest, you had me at Space Laser Church or whatever that saying was.

00:05:47: I wasn't sure about the job, but when I read that, I was like, I'm sorry.

00:05:51: Excellent, excellent.

00:05:51: Take my money already.

00:05:53: But listen, just coming back to your role as one of the founding musical performers of ABBA Voyage, you know, this is the first time this has ever been done.

00:06:01: Anything like this has ever been done.

00:06:02: This was utterly groundbreaking.

00:06:04: And you mentioned this is such an emotional experience because you're dealing with that nostalgia and that hope and, you know, it connects to people's past and, you know, maybe their younger years when they adored Abba, obviously, in the seventies and eighties, etc.

00:06:17: What did it feel like on stage being at this kind of crossover between a stadium full of emotion and the very latest cutting edge technology?

00:06:27: I think what such a testament to the show and the producers is.

00:06:30: the tech just melts away.

00:06:31: So when you're in soundcheck and you're in the stadium the tech is very there and you're looking around and there's all these screens and all these people with the headsets on and all these you know stages moving up and down and things and then you'll jump and it will be like Avatar Benny behind you or something and it's a very strange thing.

00:06:51: but as soon as the show starts and that incredible sound of the visitors comes on.

00:06:56: And I make a load of white noise on the synth.

00:06:58: And the show starts, it's a journey and the tech is just hardly even there.

00:07:03: And that is what's so powerful about good tech and when it's paired with authenticity, artistry, emotion.

00:07:09: And that's why I'm excited about where this is heading because I think when it's used in the right way, it can be so powerful.

00:07:14: And we can tell stories in new ways and we can connect with audiences in new ways.

00:07:19: Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:20: I mean, speaking of which, you have like a whole parallel backstory.

00:07:25: incredibly impressive as an artist, a performer, a songwriter, entrepreneur, a pioneer with a lot of digital platforms and digital instruments as well.

00:07:33: Did ABBA kind of rekindle or make you look at your own journey in a new way?

00:07:39: Did it inspire you to kind of revisit or open up any of those aspects of your life as a musician that have been running in parallel?

00:07:46: Absolutely,

00:07:47: because I've always been fascinated with... Music technology, digital stuff, experimenting with unusual instruments.

00:07:53: live, you know, especially as an electronic performer, it's like, how can we make this feel human?

00:07:59: How can we make this feel emotional, you know, a synth can feel like a very robotic, futuristic noise, even the warmest, fuzziest analog synth that can be.

00:08:09: Difficult to make it feel human sometimes.

00:08:11: You know, I love the intersection where you get artists like Daft Punk, who have these incredibly human songs, human after all, but they're, you know, space robots on with synthesizers.

00:08:19: And that's just my favorite little pocket of music, I think.

00:08:23: So I've always been in this spot where I've tried to embrace technology and use instruments like the Tenorion I used to play, which was this lighter box that made lots of noises and trying to incorporate visual ways.

00:08:36: to recreate songs live and I had like light up clothes at one point and all sorts of crazy things I'd experimented in.

00:08:42: So when the Abba Voyage thing came along, it was just such an important role for me on lots of levels because not only was I a huge fan just of Abba of the songwriting of the band, I really am a huge fan.

00:08:56: If you spoke to anyone before I did this, they would be like, this is my dream job.

00:09:00: And then the technology stuff, which I'm fascinated with, I always have been so interested in the space and the most groundbreaking music concert in the world is calling.

00:09:09: Just how does that even happen?

00:09:11: And so it's just hugely inspirational on so many levels for me and to go to Sweden and work with the band on the music.

00:09:19: go into those old multi-tracks in this phenomenal studio where there's a Yamaha GX-I in the corner and some Clavier in the other corner and just, you know, I would sit with Benny and work out what synth sounds to play in the show.

00:09:30: I mean, it was just a dream come true.

00:09:33: So just on suddenly levels and seeing the show go from these kind of crazy ideas that we heard, what seemed like crazy ideas at the beginning, seeing them evolve and become real and then for the show to open and I remember us all thinking this could flop.

00:09:51: We don't know if people are going to go and pay money to see a band that aren't there.

00:09:56: Abavoid has proved that people don't care if they're watching pixels as long as they're fooling something and that's quite phenomenal really and it can be really scary.

00:10:05: I mean an avatar is a musician's worst nightmare.

00:10:08: They don't take him off, they don't sleep, they don't get a sore throat, they can play forever.

00:10:12: It's a promoter's dream.

00:10:14: There's an artist's nightmare.

00:10:15: But I think we have to embrace it.

00:10:17: We have to embrace AI.

00:10:18: We have to embrace technology.

00:10:20: And there are always ways we can do that that can empower our creativity rather than see it as some kind of threat.

00:10:26: Oh, indeed.

00:10:26: I mean, watch this space.

00:10:28: I'm very much looking forward to see where you in particular go with all of this stuff next.

00:10:32: But speaking of which, you know, you're kind of looking at this impeccable back catalog of songs that have touched, you know, hundreds of millions of lives and you're performing it live with these avatars.

00:10:44: I am imagining things are quite precise in terms of the timing, but in some ways when we go to a gig, we kind of connect with a little bit of spontaneity and a bit of improvisation and all that kind of thing.

00:10:56: Did performing with the Abitars change or inform any way that you look at the energy from the stage and connection and emotion, because I guess things were very tight with the timing, so it would be less on the improvised side.

00:11:09: But you made a huge connection with the audience.

00:11:11: Yeah, there was not much with the room for improvisation, I will be honest.

00:11:15: At points it was like performing in a big version of The Sims.

00:11:19: You know, it was crazy.

00:11:21: But there was a different kind of adrenaline from the concert and from the team and the band itself, like we were, we auditioned and had been involved in the journey from early days.

00:11:31: So we were very tightly bonded and very tight as a band as well.

00:11:34: So we had a lot of emotion in our group.

00:11:36: We're ten musicians.

00:11:38: So I think for the production it was really important they had a live band because otherwise it would kind of be like pressing play on a big digital movie, right?

00:11:47: you know it kind of like going to watch the cinema with lasers almost so.

00:11:50: I think it was super important for them to have this band and if you took the band away there would not be much music played.

00:11:57: almost everything was live apart from Abba's vocals and keys and guitar.

00:12:02: we were literally the backing band.

00:12:04: you know we were kind of a new version of their backing band in the seventies when they toured and that's what they wanted to recreate and so it was incredibly powerful, tight, grooving, great sound from this band, like a ten-person monstrous band, you know, we'd rehearsed our butts off, we'd been working on the scores with Benny and Bjorn for days getting it exactly right.

00:12:26: So the music was fantastic, the live music, and that's inescapable and you feel that when you're watching the show.

00:12:33: I think if it was backing tracks, pre-recorded music, it would be a very different show.

00:12:38: And so it's going to be interesting to see how new concerts that I'm hearing of that people are working on or cheaper versions of ways to recreate this, you know, how they're going to do it.

00:12:48: Because I do think the live band is very important.

00:12:50: And I do think the other big connecting factor is that it was actually ABBA performing and filmed and they were artistically involved in it.

00:12:59: So if you're talking about an Elvis avatar show, they're going to have to just cut a footage of him and stick his head on a stunt double body and It will be very interesting to see how that is executed to the same standard, you know?

00:13:12: Yeah,

00:13:12: indeed.

00:13:13: I mean, you've spoken there about the emotional bond between folks who are playing music live together, even if it is very precise, it's very regimented in a way.

00:13:23: It's still that emotion and those lifetimes that have all come together to create that perfect experience for the band and the audience.

00:13:30: How do you go about balancing that kind of tension between technology and its precision?

00:13:36: with the emotion that you put into your music as a writer, as a singer, as a performer, because you do do it very well.

00:13:43: You've got this analog heart and you're using lots of very excellent new technology.

00:13:48: This emotion is just like all the way through it.

00:13:51: Storytelling I think great songs are stories and there's been a lot of talk about the threat of AI to songwriters to music and you know it can feel a little scary but look at something like the new Lily Allen record that just dropped.

00:14:05: you know that is that is like a little novel.

00:14:08: it's like a musical novel.

00:14:09: that is not something that AI could have done not unless you fed it extremely specific personal prompts.

00:14:17: So, you know, it's that with, like you say, we're all human, we're all coming from our unique contexts and backgrounds and we are the only ones who can tell our authentic stories.

00:14:27: So I think we have to push ourselves as artists to keep trying to push that authentic voice that can't be duplicated.

00:14:34: Also as consumers, you know, we need to not just... sit scrolling slop or listening to whatever Spotify has piped into our play.

00:14:41: this we need to challenge ourselves to look for the authentic voices and to seek them out and everything is becoming frictionless and passive.

00:14:48: you know I was just watching a great little snip with Fred again who said someone's installed a boiling hot tap in the studio and so it's ruined things because it's cut out that time you need to have a chat the person you're writing a song with whilst the kettle boils and it's this.

00:15:02: you know we're making everything so easy like where's the friction where's the rub if we don't have to make effort.

00:15:08: And so I think it's like two-sided artists need to keep telling their authentic story that only they can tell in their voice and their style and consumers really like.

00:15:17: we should be responsible in not just being passive and not just drinking the slop and you know actively seeking out something like Abba Boy just a masterpiece in technology and artistry and authenticity and it deserves all the credit that it has got.

00:15:33: But if people start knocking off this in a very budget way where they've not really thought about the artist, they're not being true to the artist or they're not telling a story, I wonder if it will work.

00:15:45: Yeah, indeed.

00:15:46: I mean, you've just kind of opened up quite the ethical kind of rooms there.

00:15:51: No, no, it's perfect.

00:15:53: So agree.

00:15:54: I'm so like, you know, punching the air when you're talking about not accepting slop and not just going for the line of least resistance.

00:16:01: I mean, that's the road to hell paved with sloppy intentions right there.

00:16:05: Would Elvis be delighted, do you think, to be resurrected?

00:16:09: Well, Elvis won't dare say is the honest truth.

00:16:12: But I think we maybe underestimate fans.

00:16:14: Fans do have power and fans, especially when they're really passionate about an artist, I don't think that they will jump on something that feels inauthentic, or at least I hope they wouldn't.

00:16:25: I mean, also like the line between the audience and the artist is dissolving.

00:16:28: What it's all about is that genuine connection.

00:16:32: And if there's some cheap-ass Elvis that's not doing it right, is that connection going to happen?

00:16:37: Maybe it would have an initial success, but is it going to run forever?

00:16:40: If it does run forever, I mean, What does that mean?

00:16:43: What does that do to authenticity as well?

00:16:44: If you can just go and see one of the greatest artists of all time every night of the week doing the same show, what does that do?

00:16:53: And there's a lot of ethical and moral questions around this stuff, especially if the artist is no longer with us.

00:16:58: I think it has to be treated really sensitively.

00:17:01: Ultimately, I do believe that it comes down to creating that genuine connection for an audience and that emotion and that narrative, and that can't be faked.

00:17:09: You know, I'm sure the companies that are looking to do this now, they know that they're not going to have a chance unless they can recreate that genuine connection with the audience.

00:17:19: Yeah, strong agree there.

00:17:21: I'm very glad to hear you say that as well.

00:17:23: I think you're completely right.

00:17:26: And really, it is about authenticity above all else.

00:17:29: But broadening the scope a bit of what we're looking at.

00:17:32: This is incredible technology.

00:17:34: We've been talking a lot about it being used for legacy acts for some of the best artists.

00:17:38: ever to tread the boards.

00:17:40: Do you think this kind of technology with AI and XR can be used by up and coming bands, by ascendant artists as well?

00:17:47: Are you seeing any out there in the world?

00:17:50: It's a

00:17:50: really interesting question I've been thinking about because I'm thinking even from a grassroots level, what can you be doing in the space or maybe experimenting with?

00:17:58: Maybe you don't have the billions of money to spend on the tech, but maybe you can do something, you know, more experimental.

00:18:05: And actually, I also am a lecturer at university now.

00:18:08: I lecture at Baths Bar University in commercial music.

00:18:11: And we're about to start the audio visual module next term.

00:18:15: So I'm really excited about trying to explore some of the ideas, maybe doing like a bit of a lab or a sprint to see what we can come up with, just with, you know, not much money, but a hell of a lot of ideas can go really far sometimes.

00:18:26: So I'm quite excited to see coming from the bottom up rather than the top down what things we can come up with in that music tech life space.

00:18:33: You know I think it will be challenging for independent and emerging artists to really weaponise those things for a while.

00:18:40: but as we've seen technology gets cheaper.

00:18:42: you know like when I started out even getting in a decent studio with a decent mic and a decent desk seemed like an impossible dream.

00:18:50: and now I've got it in my laptop and I can take it wherever I go.

00:18:53: so who knows where this is going to go.

00:18:55: You know I think the A lot of the big touring acts are doing these huge shows.

00:18:59: I think we will see that space get more interactive.

00:19:01: Like I said, I think the line between the audience and the artists will start to get blurrier.

00:19:06: We're already seeing lots of shows in like roadblocks and video games in virtual spaces.

00:19:11: So I think that will get busier and more interesting.

00:19:14: And yeah, augmented reality, maybe fans being able to be more interactive in shows.

00:19:20: There's things where they can vote in real time for set lists and songs.

00:19:23: I think that's quite a fun thing.

00:19:25: I thought about experimenting with.

00:19:27: That doesn't need to be a high-tech thing, but how cool if the last three songs in the encore were voted by the audience right there?

00:19:33: That's a fun thing, right?

00:19:34: So I think there's ways we can all think to incorporate it.

00:19:37: You don't need pots of money and a huge band.

00:19:41: Yeah, indeed.

00:19:41: I mean, do you think that this kind of move towards more immersive, more multi-century performances for kind of the big productions?

00:19:49: Could this influence what we think of as regular gigs in terms of regular gigs becoming a bit more like theater or theatrical productions?

00:19:57: Are you seeing any of that trend out there?

00:19:58: Definitely.

00:19:59: I mean, even on our grass roots level in the university, the students are doing theme nights.

00:20:04: They're decorating the stages.

00:20:06: There's some students who are doing a service for upcoming bands for stage props.

00:20:12: So I think there's some really interesting things.

00:20:13: I mean, even when I started out touring, we used to tour, oh my goodness, we used to tour with some like animal statues on stage with lighter pies, what we made, which was so stupid.

00:20:26: But, you know, it was like that extra dimension.

00:20:28: But I do think these things go in, in cycles, and often, you know, music might get like more and more theatrical, like the kind of glam rock of the seventies say, and then come right back down to really punk gigs where it's just a band with no visuals and like hardly any lights will come back and just be that like really raw.

00:20:47: All the space in between, I mean, Charlie XCX's Glaston Resort, that was a masterpiece in... you know, a solo artist owning the stage, nothing else, highly leaning on these incredible tech visuals and lights and incredible sound system, but in a very like punk way, you know, it felt really disruptive and still weirdly almost, you could feel that DIY spirit, even though there's nothing about DIY, that's DIY on Charlie's level, you can feel that independence and that fierceness.

00:21:17: and so I think... there's a really interesting space there and you know the pendulum will swing.

00:21:23: i'm sure people do want an event they want.

00:21:26: they want theater they want immersive stuff.

00:21:28: right now i think a lot of it was a reaction to cove it like and also the financial crisis.

00:21:33: people don't have as much money.

00:21:35: tickets are getting so expensive.

00:21:36: so when people do go they they want.

00:21:39: a lot for their money.

00:21:41: They want an experience.

00:21:42: They want something they can Instagram.

00:21:43: They want something they can feel all around them.

00:21:47: And we are definitely heading more and more towards that.

00:21:49: But I probably think there will also be a bit of a flip side reaction of like a more punk back to like grassroots.

00:21:56: I keep saying grassroots, but I mean, like, you know, just like a loud band in a dirty venue with nothing else.

00:22:03: Because

00:22:05: that's an immersive experience as well.

00:22:07: You can probably imagine a future where there's an immersive VR experience where you get to go to a dirty gig venue and hear a loud band with no frills.

00:22:17: Just going to pour some beer on the carpet as you walk in.

00:22:19: A l of like Camden Barfly in two thousand and eight.

00:22:24: Warm calling.

00:22:26: Always warm calling on your face.

00:22:30: Take my money already.

00:22:31: I love it.

00:22:32: But listen, you kind of mentioned Roblox there earlier.

00:22:34: And I think that's utterly fascinating.

00:22:36: Obviously JBL had this great presence there with JBL land and Roblox and so many young folks hanging out there and interacting and just, you know, spending a lot of time there.

00:22:46: And you've also got Minecraft and Fortnite and some of those areas.

00:22:49: There's a whole generation that's growing up in these shared virtual spaces.

00:22:54: Do you think They might be drawn towards virtual concerts as a kind of natural extension of their lives in these shared virtual spaces.

00:23:04: Sure.

00:23:04: I mean, I'm not super down on this stuff, but my nephew who's been here all week, he's on Roblox every day, you know.

00:23:10: So I certainly think, yeah, that is where he's hanging out.

00:23:13: And likewise, we're about to teach a live module at uni.

00:23:17: But what is live now?

00:23:18: Live doesn't mean physical anymore.

00:23:20: Live can be... YouTube.

00:23:22: live can be roadblocks, you know.

00:23:24: So it's an interesting time for live, I think, not being defined to physical spaces.

00:23:28: I do feel like people will always want to gather and share spectacle.

00:23:33: And the question is whether the tech act is up to the point where you can really feel like you're doing that, what's not physically being in the same space as other people.

00:23:41: Because even if you can VR into a room full of people, are you going to get that?

00:23:47: feeling of presence.

00:23:48: It's an interesting question, and I'm not saying no right now.

00:23:50: There's probably a way that they're going to come up with to do it, but I think there'll probably be a few things that will work alongside each other.

00:23:57: People will always have this desire to kind of get with other people listening to loud music.

00:24:03: It's a very caveman instinct, isn't it, to drum and chant in an outside space, communally, and I think that probably We are just wired to want to do that.

00:24:13: So I don't think live music itself is going to go anywhere for some time.

00:24:17: I don't think it's really threatened by this.

00:24:19: I just think it's like an interesting additional space.

00:24:22: So maybe when you do a tour in future, you'll add a Roblox gig at the end or the beginning.

00:24:26: Probably a lot of acts are doing that.

00:24:28: That's

00:24:28: a fascinating point.

00:24:30: Now speaking of which, you're obviously somebody who's been on stage with the virtual ABBA.

00:24:34: You're one of the founding musical members of that entire experience.

00:24:38: You've also done extensive of work as a singer, songwriter, performer, music industry, entrepreneur and technologist.

00:24:46: If you would like to design your dream concert experience in the future, this is Little Boots, Circa, whatever, like two or five years time.

00:24:55: Yes.

00:24:55: What would it be to give you all the different things?

00:25:00: Just a busy space.

00:25:02: Goodness me.

00:25:03: You know what?

00:25:04: I've been coming back to, I had a laser hop, you know, like Jean-Michel Jarre.

00:25:08: I built one.

00:25:09: back in the day what would some help?

00:25:12: and we toured with it and I wouldn't want to do the exact thing again but it was so cool and I would love to do something more in that space of.

00:25:23: I love when you can see music being made and it's very easy to see a drummer or a guitarist and that's a very visual thing to connect with.

00:25:32: it's always frustrated me as a keyboard player how you were stood with a black box and no one can really tell what's going on.

00:25:39: And I've got a keytar, but they're kind of cheesy.

00:25:41: I mean, I love them, but they're a bit now.

00:25:43: So I've always been obsessed with kind of trying to paint music visually in some way.

00:25:47: And that's why I use Tenorion and different experiments and like more physical things and things using light.

00:25:54: Like I had clothes that reacted to music and I'm a big fan of things like Imogen Heaps Gloves and things like this.

00:26:00: so I would love to experiment more in that space and be able to kind of paint with sound live or you know with lasers.

00:26:07: I think one of my things I always wanted to do is make like a giant sequencer.

00:26:12: live made of lights or something like these are just my like my dreams.

00:26:16: if anyone listening to this wants to collaborate on any weird stuff like this and call me but this is this was always my dream.

00:26:21: yeah i mean i used to play this tenorion thing gamma hot tenorion and i'd always wanted to make a giant one to play live on the stage.

00:26:28: i think i did make make something like that at one point but it wasn't horrible.

00:26:33: yeah i think.

00:26:34: just big visual representations of what you're actually doing musically, so rather than telling a different story in film or other things, for me it all comes back to the music and trying to make that music come to life in a new way.

00:26:48: Fantastic, well I'm very much looking forward to that.

00:26:51: However, it materializes.

00:26:53: That's just my, like, more dreams.

00:26:56: Just to be clear, I've got no facilities to make that happen right now.

00:26:59: The world is full of serendipity.

00:27:00: If anyone's listening, we'll be including a link to Little Booth's website, Victoria's website and her university course.

00:27:07: So if you're inspired to reach out, please do.

00:27:09: Listen, Victoria, I'm wondering, is there one thing that you're really looking forward to from the future of music and also one thing that you hope doesn't change at all and we really never lose?

00:27:20: I'm looking forward to people caring less about numbers and virality, which has started to happen, I'm hearing.

00:27:29: But, you know, for a few years, we've just had this obsession with things going viral or, you know, what your stats, you know, oh, you're not coming on this podcast unless you've got five thousand followers or whatever it is.

00:27:39: And this obsession with numbers and views that I think is really just rewarding this.

00:27:45: do me slop scroll dopamine thing we've got going on and I do think that's starting to shake a little.

00:27:52: I don't think it will be quick but I'm hoping that gathers momentum and you know what I'm hearing is people really wanting real fan bases again people who can sell tickets people who are doing something artistic or interesting.

00:28:05: it's that authenticity again.

00:28:06: so I'm hoping that the conversations coming more back to that rather than being obsessed with how many followers you've got or whatever it is or you know.

00:28:14: so I'm quite looking forward to the conversation changing from that and not being so obsessed with this how many likes something has.

00:28:22: What's something I wish wouldn't change?

00:28:24: Good question.

00:28:25: I guess songwriting.

00:28:27: I do think AI is a great tool but it is a little scary how good it's going to be.

00:28:32: It's pretty good now and we are so early on the journey and so it really makes you think where that is going to go, because I say AI couldn't write the Lily Allen album, but you know, I can see a point we could get to where it could.

00:28:47: So I think, you know, on a moral and a legal side, I'm really glad to see some deals are starting to come through now that I'm much fairer for artists with AI learning born artists music.

00:28:57: And I hope that continues.

00:28:59: And I hope that we are, you know, we do the right thing in that.

00:29:02: A lot of things.

00:29:03: I hope that it just becomes this incredibly liberating creative tool for all of us rather than something that takes away or I think what the biggest threat is probably just that we'll get lazy.

00:29:13: Like I said, this kind of friction, this passive consumption, you can also become a passive creator almost if it's that easy to set something up.

00:29:21: You know, I could build an engine that I fed my whole catalog to and it would probably write a song.

00:29:26: as good if not better than me tomorrow.

00:29:28: It's kind of the temptation that it could be that easy, you know?

00:29:31: So, yeah, it's what I was saying before, but I think we do have to choose, so we absolutely do have to choose.

00:29:38: It's fine to have the path of least resistance.

00:29:40: sometimes when you're like, I mean, I've just completed half term and I will most definitely be choosing the path of least resistance tonight.

00:29:47: You know, I congratulate myself for surviving that week.

00:29:52: But yeah, it just does creators and consumers.

00:29:54: I think it is important to do both and to keep questioning and keep seeking things out.

00:30:00: And as a songwriter, I hope that great pop songwriting that comes from humans will always be as wonderful as... as it has been.

00:30:11: A man, Victoria, absolutely.

00:30:13: And speaking of which, I'm now going to ask you our final question, which is a final question for all of our guests.

00:30:18: Everyone from Imogen Heap, to Muki Kulhan, to Carl Cox, to A.R.

00:30:22: Rahman, they've all chosen a track for our VIP title playlist.

00:30:26: And now it's your turn.

00:30:29: Speaking of beautiful songwriting.

00:30:31: No, absolutely.

00:30:32: Please do.

00:30:32: Please put your own song.

00:30:33: I would love that, actually.

00:30:34: It's a bit cheating.

00:30:36: No, no, no.

00:30:37: Lots of people have done.

00:30:38: People who are talented enough to write songs are always invited to put their own.

00:30:42: I'm going to choose my own song, Silver Balloons, of my last record because I need the promotion.

00:30:47: And it's a song that I wrote and produced myself.

00:30:50: And I'm really proud of it because for a long time I didn't say I was a producer and I would... apologize and go.

00:30:57: oh no I don't really know what I'm doing in the studio which was nonsense and it's interesting how I think that's come from being a woman and spending a lot of time around fantastic male producers and not seeing many female producers.

00:31:11: that showed me the way and so I always would apologize for myself and tell myself I didn't know what I was doing in the studio which is completely ridiculous because I've been doing this for fifteen years.

00:31:21: so this last record was when I really owned my role as producer.

00:31:25: And I wrote and produced all the record and I was.

00:31:27: I'm really proud of that.

00:31:28: And so I'm going to put the song Silver Bloods

00:31:31: in.

00:31:31: I love it.

00:31:31: I love that so much.

00:31:32: Thank you.

00:31:33: And folks who are listening who'd like to investigate that topic a little bit in more detail.

00:31:37: We had a wonderful lady called Zylo Arya, who's an artist, but also runs these production courses specifically for women to get them more involved and more confident and to kind of realize how powerful they can be in the studio.

00:31:49: So we will link to that in the show notes as well.

00:31:51: But Victoria, that was absolutely a superb choice.

00:31:53: Right.

00:31:53: Thanks.

00:31:55: Just happen to be one

00:31:56: more as chance would have it.

00:31:57: I have actually pre-chosen a track for the tide playlist which is also by an artist called little boots and I'm gonna I'm gonna choose this one just because I remember when it came out and just a Fusion of the look and the fashion and the styling and the production and the vote.

00:32:11: it was just on point.

00:32:13: And that is an absolute banger from back in the day called Get Things Done, which I still love today.

00:32:18: It's a brilliant tune.

00:32:19: I thought it was going

00:32:20: to go even older, but that is a good one.

00:32:22: Yeah, I love that song.

00:32:23: It's a tenth anniversary of that record actually this year.

00:32:26: I was supposed to do a whole... I was trying to do a special edition version of the album on floppy disk because the whole album was themed around like a nineties work aesthetic.

00:32:36: But I couldn't find any of these.

00:32:38: You used to be able to get CDs out of like floppy disks.

00:32:40: But they've gone out of production because nobody wanted them, but me, obviously.

00:32:43: Enjoy.

00:32:44: And it's a great motivational song if you actually need to get things done.

00:32:48: It's an awesome, awesome track.

00:32:49: So listen, that was Holograms and Headliners, how tech is rewriting the concert experience.

00:32:55: Thank you so much for joining us to Brilliant Little Boots, AKA Victoria Esketh.

00:32:59: Thank

00:32:59: you.

00:32:59: Thanks so much for having me.

00:33:01: So

00:33:01: listeners, there you have it from playing in the revolutionary Abba Voyage Live band, reimagining her own relationship with technology.

00:33:08: Victoria offers a glimpse into how tech can not only resurrect legends, but also inspire brand new creativity.

00:33:15: As we move deeper into the era of holograms, AI and immersive shows, one thing is clear.

00:33:21: Music will always find new ways to move us, whether it's through pixels or people.

00:33:25: Thank you so much for listening.

00:33:26: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and share the podcast.

00:33:30: And feel free to join us next time as we continue exploring the ideas, shaping the future of music and performance.

00:33:36: Until then, keep dancing, whether it's under lights, lasers or holograms.

00:33:39: For more exclusive content, some behind the scenes goodies, and maybe even some competitions, connect with us over on the Instagram.

00:33:45: You can find us at audio talks podcast.

00:33:47: Thank you so much for joining us.

00:33:49: We will see you next time.