00:00:00: Hey there, my name's Usheen Lonnie and welcome to Audio Talks presented to you by Harman where we explore the big questions shaping music today.
00:00:09: Now in this episode we're going to be asking, has music become too perfect?
00:00:14: And joining me are two extraordinary guests.
00:00:16: Frank Filippetti is a legendary music producer.
00:00:19: engineer and mixer with seven Grammy Awards to his name and a career working with some of the world's greatest artists.
00:00:26: Welcome, Frank.
00:00:27: Great to see you, Shane.
00:00:28: It's been a while.
00:00:30: Has been a while.
00:00:30: Great to have you back.
00:00:31: Actually, dear listeners and viewers, these two incredible gentlemen are two of the power trio that we had on the very first edition of Audio Talks together with the legendary Dr.
00:00:41: Sean Olive.
00:00:41: So we are getting the band back together.
00:00:43: Speaking of which, it is a great pleasure to welcome to the main stage Dr.
00:00:47: Hauke Egermann.
00:00:48: who is the Professor of Systematic Musicology at the University of Cologne and his research explores how we emotionally experience music.
00:00:57: So welcome back, Hauke.
00:00:59: Yeah, thank you so much.
00:01:00: It's really good to be back and thanks for having me.
00:01:03: Awesome.
00:01:03: As I alluded to a bit earlier, if there are two better people, more suited to answer the questions we have lined up, I have yet to meet them.
00:01:10: And this is just such a... privilege to be joined by these fine set of minds to unpack everything from auto tune, to songwriting by committee, to social media hits, HD sound, even the rise of AI in music.
00:01:23: So my dear friends, listeners and viewers, sit back, relax, fine tune your ears.
00:01:27: and let's dive into the big question, has music become too perfect?
00:01:32: So Let's kick off with the Q&A.
00:01:34: You have both worked together on the Art of Listing project with Harmon, and this really explored how we experience and how we value music.
00:01:42: So looking back, and we're going to start with yourself, Frank, what do you think were some of the key insights that still resonate with you today about the act of listing in an era where music production has become so technologically advanced?
00:01:56: Well,
00:01:57: first, I'd like to make a public service announcement.
00:02:01: This episode contains smoking.
00:02:04: For those of you who are not promoting smoking, it just happens to be an addiction on my part.
00:02:11: I just want to get that out of the way.
00:02:14: Always, Frank.
00:02:15: We're keeping it real on the podcast.
00:02:17: We have gone from an era, and I think Halka will, I'm hoping he feels the same way, where we've gone from active listening to passive listening.
00:02:30: We have moved from sitting down and letting the music be its own emotional moment as opposed to a background.
00:02:44: People refer to it now as music is the soundtrack of our lives, but it literally has become the background of our lives.
00:02:54: as opposed to back in the sixties and seventies when i was just getting into this business we were listening to music totally as an active participant.
00:03:07: emotionally we would.
00:03:10: i remember i didn't have money for headphones but i had two speakers and i would lay down in the living room.
00:03:18: with one speaker on one ear and one speaker on the other and just play something, the latest Beatles album or something and become totally, it closed my eyes.
00:03:29: I wasn't a druggy, never have been, but I know druggies do this too.
00:03:34: But the point being, whether you use drugs or not, music is so emotionally involving when you are actively participating.
00:03:46: It becomes So, so when you are letting it passively just supply music at work or in the supermarket or what have you?
00:03:59: Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, strong relate on those speakers on either side of the head lying down on the floor just getting completely lost in music.
00:04:07: I mean, I did that for hours and hours and hours of my formative years.
00:04:12: I can really relate to that.
00:04:13: But like as you say, we're in an era where productions become very technologically advanced.
00:04:18: You know, music maybe has a different role in our lives.
00:04:21: And I love that takeaway about the active listening, the active, active listening, if you like.
00:04:26: And Hauke, I know this is something that you study.
00:04:28: What like are some of the insights that you took with you after this art of listening project together with the good Dr.
00:04:35: Sean, Olive and Frank here?
00:04:38: Well, I mean, generally music is still, I think, very meaningful to us, even though it might have moved a bit further to the background, but it's omnipresence.
00:04:49: The high amount of number of hours that people spend listening every day still show us it is still meaningful for them.
00:04:54: And it's quite surprising because from a technological point of view, there are so many different ways now that people can engage with music on so many different layers.
00:05:03: Music has become mobilized.
00:05:05: Access is incredibly increased.
00:05:08: to music, also the sound quality theoretically at least has reached the absolute maximum level of capacity.
00:05:15: I would say generally I would like to emphasize that people also value it as an art form, as you say.
00:05:21: It's an art of listening.
00:05:22: People should engage with it to explore the depth in the music because that will potentially also have long-term beneficial impact for these people.
00:05:35: So we use music for emotion regulation, form our identity to confirm ourselves, to become self-aware, and all these things work, of course, better when we focus on music, right, when we participate in it more actively.
00:05:51: Well, I agree with that, but I also would like to say that Music is the first form of communication, really.
00:05:59: I mean, you know, when we look back long before there was language, there were drums and there were instruments that people made.
00:06:07: And music has always been about communication.
00:06:11: And so when you sit and actively listen and the amygdala and all those areas of the brain that you study start to fire, it suddenly becomes an experience of its own.
00:06:25: And although people are listening more than ever, I don't know that they're listening with that kind of involvement.
00:06:34: And I think there are many people that have never felt that involvement the way we used to feel it.
00:06:43: And I think it's something that's a missing art.
00:06:48: Frank, you are somebody who has engineered and produced some of the most iconic records of the past few decades and you continue today.
00:06:57: Before we started recording, you told me about two amazing projects coming up and listeners and watchers.
00:07:01: all I can say is watch this space.
00:07:04: How do you view the rise of things like auto tune and pitch correction?
00:07:09: Do you see these as tools for creativity or is there a risk that they can contribute to music being too perfect?
00:07:17: Like with any technology, go back to, you know, steam engine, go back to cars, go back to telephones.
00:07:26: Any technology brings with it positives and negatives.
00:07:30: I mean, there are just things you have to deal with.
00:07:34: The hard part in all this is the technology is starting to outpace our abilities intellectually to deal with it.
00:07:45: We're finding things with AI that are at the very least disturbing and could be dangerous.
00:07:54: On the other hand, there are things that it does that improve the quality of all of our lives.
00:08:01: Autotune is a perfect example of something that was originally set up to do something that we did all the time.
00:08:11: you know, we used to go through a song and we used to say, okay, we'd have four or five vocal takes and we would comp them together into one vocal take.
00:08:22: We'd say, oh, this line is great, that line's great, but it's a little lot of tune and we don't have another line in our other four that matches the emotion of that.
00:08:33: So let's just tune it.
00:08:34: So we would go in manually and tune it down through The technological device of the time which was the harmonizer.
00:08:45: nine ten or nine four nine and you do that manually throughout the tune.
00:08:50: the problem is that was a difficult process.
00:08:55: Being a difficult process it limited its use.
00:09:00: You wouldn't go through the whole song and tune every note because it was just a pain in the neck.
00:09:06: You'd have to do it manually.
00:09:08: So when autotune came along and started to do these corrections automatically, it became seductive as technology can be.
00:09:21: It became seductive to say, tune the whole thing.
00:09:27: Now the problem is tune.
00:09:30: the whole thing is like saying to an AI, I want to write this.
00:09:38: Okay.
00:09:39: The AI says, R-I-G-H-T.
00:09:42: I want to write this.
00:09:43: No, I want to write this.
00:09:44: W-R-I-T-E.
00:09:46: Autotune doesn't know the difference between what was intended and so it makes assumptions.
00:09:54: And that's the problem with AI.
00:09:57: It makes assumptions.
00:09:59: Many of them are correct.
00:10:01: A lot of them are not.
00:10:03: And what that does is it forces a unnaturalness in the emotional part of the brain that I am uncomfortable with.
00:10:17: I have to say, and not to make this too long, but I had an artist that I was working with when Autotune first came out, and she came to me and she wanted me to mix her record.
00:10:29: And she said, I can't get the sound that I'm looking for.
00:10:33: So I said, okay, I took a record and I says, I'll do it.
00:10:36: It was very good.
00:10:37: And the first thing I did was I went through all the songs and spent a lot of time rebalancing and so forth.
00:10:44: And the next thing I did was there was auto tune on every track.
00:10:50: And I took it off and I manually redid some of the lines that were up.
00:10:56: Most of it was perfect.
00:10:57: So I let it go.
00:11:00: So I go back and she comes in and I say, I want you to listen to this.
00:11:05: And I got it sound really good.
00:11:06: And she says, Oh my God, this sounds so fantastic.
00:11:11: But what happened to my voice?
00:11:13: And I said, what do you mean?
00:11:15: She says, my voice doesn't sound like me.
00:11:20: And I said, that is you.
00:11:23: What you've been listening to is this.
00:11:26: I put the auto tune on.
00:11:27: She says, oh, that's it.
00:11:29: That's better.
00:11:30: And I said, listen, live with this for a week or two and then come back.
00:11:38: Just play it or get used to it.
00:11:40: And once she did, it was a no brainer.
00:11:44: But her initial reaction was, this is the sound that I'm used to.
00:11:51: This is what everybody's been, you know, they put auto tune on as they're recording the track.
00:11:56: And that's the voice that she hears.
00:11:58: So she becomes, that's her voice.
00:12:01: And so you have to be careful with these things because you get used to something.
00:12:08: Like mom's cooking, my mom cooks better than your mom.
00:12:12: But in reality, it's because only because I've grown up with that.
00:12:17: I know what that tastes like, and she has to get used to that taste.
00:12:23: I love that metaphor.
00:12:24: And it's an old age, old story of being careful, you know, be careful what you wish for.
00:12:28: But Alka, coming over to yourself, you know, we heard Frank there describing this uncomfortable feeling when, you know, the technology is moving fast, but emotionally, we're kind of in a different place.
00:12:38: you know, the technology is creating what's been known as this uncanny valley between something that is an artifact and something that is, you know, straight from a human and people feel uncomfortable with this.
00:12:49: You know, looking from the perspective of systematic musicology, what would you say is in the research about how listeners respond emotionally to those really perfect vocals that Frank was describing there versus the more natural, imperfect performances?
00:13:06: Yeah, we know generally from a lot of research that expressiveness in the music comes from small deviations from what people would normally expect.
00:13:15: And these deviations can be random or they can be part of some kind of style or groove.
00:13:21: So we want the performance to be a little bit unpredictable to a certain degree.
00:13:26: If we create a program and algorithm that then reproduces perfect pitch, of course, that's not.
00:13:33: unpredictable, right?
00:13:34: So this is why it becomes boring.
00:13:36: And then if we add a little bit more randomness to it, it might still not be the same as an actual normal performer.
00:13:42: So this is where we might get into this uncanny valley.
00:13:45: But I think we must be careful when we talk about different AI systems.
00:13:51: And let's say tools, automation tools, of course, there are many different ways on how we can automate production, how we can use artificial intelligence.
00:14:00: And there are, let's say, more simpler rule-based algorithms like, oh, this is supposed to be this pitch, and then we keep this, we straighten it, basically flatten it out, and then we lose the expression.
00:14:12: There are, of course, AI algorithms that are trained on lots of data with neural networks with deep learning algorithms, and they, of course, can then imitate humans quite well and can produce output that is almost undistinguishable from actual human performances.
00:14:33: But of course, as Frank just said, there will be lots of assumptions or decisions made by that system that we don't have any influence over, right?
00:14:41: It will just say, okay, I'm just gonna sound like that or that.
00:14:44: And we are definitely losing a lot of control over that.
00:14:47: And it just becomes some kind of, it just reproduces what it already knows, what it has heard quite a lot.
00:14:54: This is something that we need to, yeah, we need to talk about and discuss what we think about that.
00:14:58: Do we want to give away so much control over our own expressions?
00:15:03: I'm not so sure about
00:15:07: that.
00:15:18: careful what we wish for, but you know you've both been talking about this kind of dynamic tension between perfection and feel and of course with more HD recording formats and like pristine audio perfection.
00:15:31: Do we think there's a temptation to kind of go down the road of more and more detail and more and more granular editing etc?
00:15:38: You know what happens to feel if we get obsessed with quality?
00:15:41: How do we kind of keep the feel, the soul and music?
00:15:44: As a producer, feel is the basic underlying system that we rely on.
00:15:52: I mean, the two things that are most important as a producer and producing music is pitch and timing.
00:16:03: The feel is timing, pitch.
00:16:05: we've been discussing.
00:16:07: Now we have tools to do exactly what we've done with AutoTune in the field world and We have auto-generated beats and auto-generated tracks and so forth.
00:16:20: And it's interesting to watch how people react to these things.
00:16:25: There's an emotional arc that a musician creates when they record a track along with their buddies.
00:16:35: And they all go together and rise and fall together.
00:16:40: including not just dynamics, but including timing.
00:16:45: And, you know, the drummer may slow up slightly going into the chorus, but then the band follows him, but then they go back to the original tempo and that adds tension.
00:17:01: That adds a moment of tension and release.
00:17:06: and throughout the arc of that music, that's extremely important.
00:17:11: Now, if you take that drum track and you slice it up so that it doesn't slow down into the chorus, then you have two decisions to make.
00:17:23: When it goes back into the chorus, you're going to have a space, so you got to move that closer, or you have this thing where it slows up, but then doesn't go back to the original tempo.
00:17:39: It loses the landing point.
00:17:44: We call that the landing point in music because that's where you land.
00:17:49: And the thing is, is we're creating this, this moment, this emotional moment, and you have to be able to allow that to happen.
00:17:59: That's not to say that you can't start with a beat, go through a whole song.
00:18:05: Layer a bunch of things on it and have a song that people love to dance to.
00:18:10: that's mostly what dance music is.
00:18:14: the emotional involvement then becomes more visceral than Mental but it's still.
00:18:21: it's something that still gets inside you.
00:18:24: So both sides Have their proponents, but it's like everything else.
00:18:29: Where do you draw the line?
00:18:33: There is no line.
00:18:34: And I'm afraid that especially a lot of new young producers who are insecure about their production abilities, if they can see it on a graph, they go to that because that means it's got to be right.
00:18:52: Okay.
00:18:53: If they look at the waveform and they all hit at the same point, then that has to be right.
00:18:58: So I can't be wrong making that decision.
00:19:01: But to a producer who has years of experience, you may like the widening of that downbeat and the way it lands.
00:19:12: And so that takes more security in your own ability to suggest that this is the way to go.
00:19:22: Absolutely.
00:19:23: You are confident in your experience and your abilities and your ears to see that even though something is visually perfect, It doesn't quite feel right.
00:19:31: Exactly.
00:19:33: So there we've kind of really seen a great example of this tension between feel and perfection.
00:19:39: And you mentioned, you know, Frank mentioned a bunch of people coming together in the same physical space and writing music together.
00:19:45: They're kind of riding the wave.
00:19:47: There's a bit of telepathy going on.
00:19:48: They come to the landing point together.
00:19:50: And it may not look visually perfect on the screen with a, you know, your digital razor blade editor.
00:19:56: but it feels great and that's the art of the producer in many ways is to kind of protect that feel.
00:20:01: but a lot of music today it's made by much larger committees than maybe it's been made in the past where you would have had a record made by Holland Dozier Holland back in the sixties and seventies.
00:20:13: Today there may be like twenty, thirty writers on a piece of music, a top line writer, this writer, etc.
00:20:18: And it's much more distributed.
00:20:19: That may be something to do with technology.
00:20:21: But I'm wondering, does this affect the emotional impact in your experience?
00:20:25: Or is it a case of good songwriters?
00:20:28: It doesn't matter how many there are, people will have a good emotional reaction if the song is powerful.
00:20:34: This is a really tricky question.
00:20:35: We can't really say, right?
00:20:36: I think if people spend a lot of time on something in a very specialized and complex process, I would assume that the end result, of course, has some kind of quality.
00:20:44: But I think I would like to emphasize another dimension of music which is of course music is about people and it's not only about what we hear but it's also about what it means to us.
00:20:56: and when we talk about collaboration between people then we talk about collaboration between artists between their talk about their personalities their identities and that also gives us of course a lot of meaning.
00:21:07: this is why people engage a lot of times with music because they feel like that the artist is talking to them that they provide some kind of support for them and all this of course is lust in an industrial process, right?
00:21:19: This is a difference if you go to the supermarket and buy a highly processed food from the shelf or if you go to a farmer and then they sell you a piece of meat and he tells you that's that kind of animal I've been feeding for the entire life and I've looked after it and I think we're losing the human connection here maybe and this is something I'm very much worried about.
00:21:42: I just recently discovered that there's actually a band on a streaming platform that's actually quite successful currently, and people don't even know if it's actually real.
00:21:51: It's not, right?
00:21:52: Of course it's not.
00:21:53: And they even provide social media posts.
00:21:55: They have pictures.
00:21:56: They have quite okay recordings.
00:21:59: And it's all basically just a big scam.
00:22:02: I don't know.
00:22:02: This is something I'm just really, really concerned about.
00:22:05: It's not a scam.
00:22:06: It shows how far we can leave.
00:22:11: the path.
00:22:12: You know, I mean, one of the things this very wise old saying was a camel is a horse designed by a committee.
00:22:21: And the camel has its uses, but the horse was pretty damn good.
00:22:27: The camel does other things, but committees are never conducive to fine art.
00:22:36: The greatest art in the world is always individual.
00:22:40: whether it's a Van Gogh, whether it's a Frank Lloyd Wright, whether it's a whatever it happens to be a Ludwig van Beethoven.
00:22:49: These arts were determined by an individual because there's something in the individual approach to the arts that becomes diluted by committee.
00:23:08: Committee tends to, you know, this could be better, you know, that starry night, you know, the sky doesn't really look like that.
00:23:18: Let's get rid of some of those circles, okay?
00:23:21: Let's make the stars a little more realistic.
00:23:24: That's what committees do.
00:23:26: It's the same thing in music.
00:23:28: Committees dilute the art.
00:23:31: They don't dilute our ability to enjoy it.
00:23:37: We can enjoy it, but we don't enjoy it at the same level.
00:23:41: I was a when I was a youngster in New York and I couldn't afford.
00:23:45: I had a very hard time paying for my rent and food and so forth, but I would treat myself once a week to a steak at Tad Steakhouse in Midtown Manhattan because it was a dollar ninety nine for the steak and that was my treat for the week.
00:24:03: Well, I love that steak But it's not like the steak I get now where I can put it on the grill.
00:24:11: It's enjoyable.
00:24:12: I loved it at that time, but it wasn't the real experience.
00:24:17: And I think that's the problem that Halka and I are talking about is losing that real empathetic, real emotional experience.
00:24:27: Beauty is very much in the ear of the beholder, but there is such a thing as fine art.
00:24:31: And we know when we hear it, you know.
00:24:33: Look at films.
00:24:34: You watch a Casablanca or you watch some of these great films and you feel for these people.
00:24:42: The films of today, they're enjoyable, but they're enjoyable on a less emotional level in the sense that you have a writer that does the comedy lines, you have a writer that does the romantic lines, you have a writer that does the action lines.
00:25:01: They're all impressive in their moment, but as a coherent whole, it's not the same.
00:25:07: And this is what's happening in music as well.
00:25:09: Indeed.
00:25:10: And you've kind of alluded to with the AI-generated acts.
00:25:13: They're on social media.
00:25:15: Social media is a huge thing now, and it basically condenses.
00:25:19: As you said earlier, Frank, this wonderful story arc that people come together, this narrative arc that we capture and song or even over the course of an album.
00:25:27: But now we have, you know, a fifteen minute TikTok or an Instagram reel or whatever it is.
00:25:32: Do we think these limitations of time can be interesting for the creative process?
00:25:39: Are they defining
00:25:40: new
00:25:41: areas of creativity or are we narrowing what we know of as artistic?
00:25:47: expression into these small spaces.
00:25:49: I think generally I would say I'm personally quite open to any kind of format, right?
00:25:53: People explore whatever options they have available to them, but I do find it quite problematic to shorten it so much.
00:26:01: A lot of the things that we talked about today when we talk about arcs and development and there's no time for that anymore, right?
00:26:08: I mean, we've also seen this with there's like an effect on new music productions.
00:26:13: The songs even become shorter.
00:26:15: They don't have any intros or outros anymore.
00:26:17: We're right into the hook line and all these things.
00:26:20: And I have a fear that it diminishes the value of the music in a way, right?
00:26:24: Because in a way that reduces the amount of time people have to express themselves.
00:26:30: I'm a bit skeptical here.
00:26:32: You know, society keeps getting faster and faster.
00:26:37: I mean, back in the Middle Ages and so forth, our day was just about working and you couldn't get from your farm to the city without taking a five-hour horse ride or whatever it happens to be.
00:26:54: Now we can get across the country in a few hours.
00:26:58: Everything becomes shortened and shortened.
00:27:02: Our attention span has become shortened and shortened.
00:27:06: And we're helping that.
00:27:09: If you look at a new movie, Certainly within three minutes, there will be some huge action thing that happens.
00:27:18: Then you look at something like one of my favorite all-time movies is Once Upon a Time in the West by Sergio Leone.
00:27:25: If you have never seen it, you have to.
00:27:29: It's unbelievable.
00:27:32: Literally the first twenty minutes of that are three guys waiting at a train station.
00:27:41: for another guy to enter on the train.
00:27:44: All we hear is the windmill and we hear the creaking of the boards.
00:27:50: and this is for twenty.
00:27:51: We hear the raindrops falling on the hats and it like sucks you in.
00:27:59: and I am so amazed by that twenty minutes of film that it blows my mind every time I see it.
00:28:09: My dad couldn't watch it.
00:28:11: He said to me when two thousand one came out What happened?
00:28:16: I couldn't understand anything.
00:28:18: There was no action.
00:28:20: So we all have these different visceral ways of reacting.
00:28:24: but for me When I sit down at my console, I'm not immediately drawn in.
00:28:31: it takes me thirty forty minutes of working to get Burrow down in that focal element of my brain where the emotions start to take over and I can now focus emotionally on what I'm doing.
00:28:48: I can't just sit down and do it.
00:28:51: It's a process.
00:28:53: The same thing with these things.
00:28:55: If you don't give that process time, you'll either lose the ability to get there.
00:29:03: or you're going to miss out on an incredible journey.
00:29:07: emotionally.
00:29:09: I'm not decrying the fact that everything has to happen now, now, now, now.
00:29:14: We have to have a car crash every three minutes.
00:29:17: Okay, fine.
00:29:19: But those movies don't move me the way once upon a time in the West moving.
00:29:25: It's a three hour movie.
00:29:26: Yeah, I've got to commit to it.
00:29:28: So commit, God damn it.
00:29:30: Commit to listening to an artist's vision for an album.
00:29:36: Not just a single.
00:29:38: Commit to Beethoven's ninth.
00:29:40: From the beginning, not just the ode to joy.
00:29:44: Commit to the whole thing and experience this art the way you would when I went to see a Monet painting.
00:29:53: I never understood it.
00:29:54: and then I went there.
00:29:56: And I spent like an hour looking at one painting and moving back.
00:30:03: And suddenly it like opened up this world for me emotionally.
00:30:08: It doesn't
00:30:08: automatically happen.
00:30:09: You have to go for it.
00:30:12: That's it.
00:30:12: The journey is the destination in many ways.
00:30:15: And I love that analogy of the painting.
00:30:17: I remember being just glued to the spot at the Museo Prado in Madrid one time when I first saw Hieronymus Bosch.
00:30:24: I couldn't take my eyes off it and there were layers and layers and layers.
00:30:28: It's like, I think I was there for half an hour, which is unusual for me.
00:30:33: Just you couldn't leave it.
00:30:34: It was just amazing.
00:30:35: And I do agree.
00:30:36: You know, these are capabilities.
00:30:37: We need to use them or we'll lose them.
00:30:39: And I think the art of listening is one of the ultimate gateways to having these deep emotional experiences.
00:30:46: And Frank, I love your anecdote about sitting in front of the desk and it's not like you just switch on the Frank switch.
00:30:53: It's like... You're on a journey.
00:30:54: And this is why the listeners have such a great journey with you as well,
00:30:57: which is why I turn the phones off when I'm, you know, I'm working because that phone rings and people say, I couldn't reach you all day.
00:31:05: I'm sorry.
00:31:06: If I have that phone on, then I answer the phone.
00:31:11: And now I got to make that forty minute journey again to get back to that place that I was.
00:31:18: It's not just a two minute phone call.
00:31:20: It's now, you know, an hour journey back.
00:31:24: So don't expect me to be on call, twenty four hours a day.
00:31:29: Those are words to live by Frank.
00:31:30: Just brilliant.
00:31:32: I'd like to come back to this kind of idea of, you know, AI coming into the mix.
00:31:36: And we are aware that this band are, you know, they're not humans.
00:31:40: It's AI generated music.
00:31:42: I've heard some AI generated music.
00:31:43: that is not bad.
00:31:44: It's like kind of pastiche of old Motown stuff.
00:31:46: There's a track called BBL Drizzy.
00:31:48: That was just incredible.
00:31:50: It had all the kind of signatures, but it was based on imitation.
00:31:54: And, you know, when I was listening to it, I kind of thought, this is AI.
00:31:57: I can take it with a pinch of salt.
00:31:59: But Hawker, I'm wondering, in terms of the emotional responses to music, have you come across a difference in the way to how audiences respond when they know something is human and when they know something is AI?
00:32:12: Does that knowledge of authorship affect the emotional connection?
00:32:17: Yeah, yeah, it definitely does.
00:32:19: There have been actually already a couple of experiments now conducted by colleagues of mine that were published recently and they studied exactly that factor.
00:32:27: They basically presented a piece of music, multiple pieces of music to listeners within two frames, so to speak.
00:32:34: So one was composed by a human and the other one was composed by an AI.
00:32:38: or is it performed by humans, is it performed by an AI.
00:32:41: And in both cases, knowing that it was artificially generated decreased the value that the people perceived in the music and their appreciation of that.
00:32:52: I still wonder why that's the case because of course AI is quite new and people don't really have much experience with it and maybe I wonder whether that would change in the future.
00:33:03: if it's if it's maybe potentially more common to use this technology.
00:33:07: Are you saying they were told ahead of time?
00:33:11: Exactly, yeah.
00:33:12: Did they have a control where they didn't tell them which was which?
00:33:17: No, they only used human-composed music in that study.
00:33:20: So there was no AI-composed music in that study.
00:33:22: It was just human.
00:33:23: that was either labeled as human or AI.
00:33:26: So it was literally not the same piece of music, but the same composer playing and performing.
00:33:34: When they were told it was AI, it affected the way I understand.
00:33:39: Okay, that makes sense.
00:33:41: So it's just the opinion that people have about the music.
00:33:44: It got the music itself.
00:33:44: That was kept constant.
00:33:46: Now, how about generationally?
00:33:48: I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm fascinated by this.
00:33:50: How about generationally?
00:33:52: In other words, were older people more able to say, this is, I don't like the AI, or were younger people more forgiving of the AI?
00:34:02: Did they respond better?
00:34:04: Yeah, unfortunately, I can't tell them because these authors didn't do this analysis.
00:34:08: Okay.
00:34:08: But I would probably assume that there are big differences currently.
00:34:14: I think it really depends on what kind of participants you choose.
00:34:17: For example, we know in K-pop, there are some sort of complete AI generated pop stars, influencers, and within that genre, it's actually quite accepted.
00:34:27: So if you then talk to fans of that genre, probably it doesn't make a big difference.
00:34:33: But I think in this study we're talking about just sort of quite normal.
00:34:37: listeners like Americans, I think.
00:34:39: You know, it would be interesting just to find out generationally, men versus women.
00:34:44: You know, I think that whole concept is intriguing to me, very intriguing.
00:34:49: There will be both studies of that in the future.
00:34:52: Of course, also the interesting part lies in comparing actual AI systems, like where the music is produced from an AI to a human.
00:35:00: But the problem with a study like that is, of course, you're basically then evaluating that specific production.
00:35:07: and it's very difficult to generalize across like you could change something in the setting of the AI and the outcome is completely different.
00:35:12: and so the question is yeah what are you really comparing?
00:35:15: Fascinating oh my goodness watch this space.
00:35:18: you know things are moving so fast and we have biases and we have expectations when we listen to a piece of music.
00:35:24: but who knows prayer we're going to be well.
00:35:27: I'd like to put you both on the spot and ask you to imagine music in ten or twenty years time from now.
00:35:33: And how do you think it's going to pan out?
00:35:35: Do you think we're going to be listening to perfectly polished AI generated perfection?
00:35:42: Or do you think there could be a human powered movement back to gritty rawness and imperfection?
00:35:49: How do you think it might pan out?
00:35:51: I think that there's always going to be the rebel element.
00:35:54: There's always going to be the vinyl folks.
00:35:58: There's always going to be the raw folks.
00:36:01: And I'm not a raw folk.
00:36:03: I mean, I preferred Steely Dan to the cure, but I love the cure, but I preferred Steely Dan.
00:36:10: So that's just me, you know?
00:36:12: But human beings are, there's a spectrum of emotional involvement and the way we view the world that is way beyond anyone's ability to comprehend.
00:36:28: And my guess is, as we get further and further, technologically, everything will be possible.
00:36:35: There's going to be the raw, there's going to be the old, there's going to be the new.
00:36:40: Some people are going to gravitate to the new, some people are going to gravitate to the old.
00:36:44: I do know this.
00:36:47: I'm losing, with modern music, the one thing that I'm afraid of is I'm losing the melody.
00:36:56: I'm losing that melodic arc that made music so important to me.
00:37:05: Now, whether that's because I grew up with that or whether that's just the way our brains are wired, I don't know.
00:37:14: All I know is the idea of melody has taken a backseat to repetition and kind of a banality.
00:37:26: I'm hoping that the age of melody comes back with a new Carly Simon or a new Alanis Morissette or someone who suddenly blows the doors off what was happening or even a new Nirvana.
00:37:43: But, you know, there was a melodic element there.
00:37:46: It was raw and powerful, but it was melodic.
00:37:50: In the last twenty years of music, it seems to be drifting to more and more.
00:37:56: Sing song.
00:37:58: almost taking old kids songs and just, you know, you know, it just doesn't move me the same.
00:38:06: Absolutely.
00:38:07: Oh, fantastic.
00:38:08: We could really talk for hours on this.
00:38:10: This is so interesting.
00:38:10: But I would like to mix things up with a bit of a quick fire round for both of you.
00:38:16: So we're going to start with the Good South Hawker.
00:38:17: So these are three questions coming fast.
00:38:20: And the answer can be as short as you like.
00:38:22: Question one, TikTok viral.
00:38:25: fifteen second hook or full album journey.
00:38:29: Full album journey, very clear.
00:38:31: Excellent.
00:38:32: Songwriting by committee, collaboration or compromise?
00:38:36: Collaboration.
00:38:37: The
00:38:37: first reaction when you hear the words AI wrote this song, curious or cautious?
00:38:43: At the moment, I would say I'm still very curious, but I don't know what I'll think in the future about that.
00:38:50: Alright, what's the space?
00:38:51: And Frank, coming over to your good self, quick fire around, three questions for you.
00:38:55: What is the, quote unquote, perfect record that you wish had been left a little more raw?
00:39:03: There's so many of them.
00:39:04: Yeah.
00:39:05: I always got into discussions with the artist saying, isn't that a little out of pitch?
00:39:11: No, no, but it's the artist at the end of the day that I'm satisfying.
00:39:14: So there's a lot of them.
00:39:16: Okay.
00:39:17: What is the song?
00:39:18: that you love where imperfection makes this unforgettable.
00:39:22: There's a track that I played for people.
00:39:24: I think I played it for you, which is Judy Dench singing Send in the Clowns.
00:39:29: It's the performance, I guess, the actual stage performance or something.
00:39:34: The audio quality really sucks.
00:39:37: It's really terrible.
00:39:38: And her pitch wavers constantly.
00:39:43: And I can't help but... cry at the end of it.
00:39:47: It is such a beautiful rendition of sending the clowns.
00:39:52: Every time I see it, if I run across it and it's in the middle, I have to wait till the end.
00:39:58: Her performance of that is the epitome of an amazing performance filled with unbelievable notes and things.
00:40:08: But wow, wow, does it hit my heart?
00:40:12: It's a stunning piece of music.
00:40:13: I remember it.
00:40:15: It knocks the breath out of you.
00:40:16: It's literally breathtaking.
00:40:17: Great call there, Frank.
00:40:19: Final question for yourself.
00:40:20: Vinyl crackle or pristine high res audio?
00:40:23: What do you reach for when you're cracking open your favorite Steely Dan?
00:40:27: Pristine high res audio.
00:40:29: Boom.
00:40:30: Lovely.
00:40:30: That's great.
00:40:31: And I would like to just bring things back to the art of listening.
00:40:35: If there was any quick piece of advice you'd give to listeners, they want to cut through the noise today of infinite perfection and reconnect with the humanity.
00:40:44: in music.
00:40:45: I mean, we've had some great tips lying on the floor with a loud speaker either side of your head.
00:40:50: I love that one myself.
00:40:51: I used to do that.
00:40:52: Any other top kind of quick tips for reconnecting with music and coming back to that art of listening, starting with your good self, Hauke.
00:41:00: Yeah, just appreciate the art that is presented to you.
00:41:03: Get some good audio equipment, I would say, of course, good headphones or even speakers.
00:41:08: I mean, people, yeah, I see them when I'm commuting listening to music.
00:41:13: Yeah, really, really I appreciate that moment.
00:41:15: Focus on it, maybe.
00:41:17: Wonderful.
00:41:18: And Frank, how about your good stuff?
00:41:19: I
00:41:20: would say, and I learned this many, many years ago while mixing, close your eyes.
00:41:25: If your eyes are closed, I think Halka, you could speak more to this than I could, but when your eyes are open, seventy-five percent of the cranial activity comes from the visual cortex.
00:41:38: When your eyes are closed the amygdala and so forth really fires when you're listening to music much more so than when your eyes are open because the visual is impairing.
00:41:50: So I'm saying if you really want to connect to the music Find a quiet place sit down listen and then close your eyes
00:41:58: Amazing absolutely top tips there and we will of course be linking to the art of listening in the show notes.
00:42:05: Final super question.
00:42:06: We're coming up to the end of time.
00:42:07: Choose a track for our VIP title playlist.
00:42:10: I'm gonna start with yourself, Frank.
00:42:11: What would you like to put in?
00:42:13: I would say a song that I did with George Michael called You've Changed.
00:42:19: It's on the songs from the last century album.
00:42:23: It's an incredible performance.
00:42:26: Sorry, I got to pick another one too.
00:42:28: I'm sorry.
00:42:28: Carly Simon doing When Manhattan Was a Maiden.
00:42:34: Amazing.
00:42:35: Amazing.
00:42:35: Thank you so much, Frank.
00:42:36: That's just beautiful.
00:42:38: Anne Hauke, what's a you?
00:42:39: Would you like to add a track to our playlist?
00:42:41: Yeah, definitely.
00:42:41: So I personally listen to quite a lot of electronic music.
00:42:45: There's actually a really cool band from Hamburg in Germany.
00:42:49: They're called Moite and they play techno as a marching band.
00:42:53: So they play it.
00:42:54: It's handmade.
00:42:54: The song is called Come Together from Moite and it's really, really cool.
00:42:59: It even has a choir in it, the children's choir singing.
00:43:02: It's really groovy and really cool.
00:43:04: oh my goodness that's going straight into my listing playlist but all of those tracks.
00:43:08: I thank you so much.
00:43:09: and my own contribution to the playlist is a demo recording never released before.
00:43:13: this amazing compilation has just come out and we want sounds or a reissue of brichite fontaine et furlée and the track is called il pleur and it's like this lo-fi demo.
00:43:23: you can hear a lot of noise tape noise I guess in the background but the emotional impact is just knocks you off your feet.
00:43:29: It's fantastic.
00:43:29: Oh, really?
00:43:30: Oh, yeah.
00:43:30: I'm going to send you a link to this.
00:43:32: See
00:43:32: if you can sneak Judy Dench into there.
00:43:34: I
00:43:34: sure will, man.
00:43:35: Absolutely.
00:43:36: She is always welcome.
00:43:37: Come on, Queen.
00:43:38: Listen, Frank, thank you so much for this.
00:43:41: Perfectly imperfect or imperfectly perfect discussion.
00:43:45: It brings us to this great conclusion about the power of music, the soul of music, the power of imperfection and the kind of depth of humanity.
00:43:54: And, you know, what we're listening to when we really listen to music, it's not just a background.
00:43:59: It is an immersive, divine experience.
00:44:02: And this really needs to be treasured and protected in an age with a lot of AI slop out there.
00:44:07: So huge.
00:44:07: thank you to my guests, Frank Filippetti and Dr.
00:44:10: Hauke.
00:44:11: agreement for sharing their insights on perfection, imperfection and indeed the future of music.
00:44:16: If you'd like to learn more about their work so do check out their collaboration with Dr.
00:44:20: Sean Olive called The Art of Listening and this is available in the show nuts thanks to our good friends at Harmon and this is a project that really beautifully reminds us Why how we listen is just important as what we hear.
00:44:34: Fill your boots there on the show notes.
00:44:35: It's a fascinating series.
00:44:37: If you enjoyed this episode, please do subscribe, rate and share it with a friend who loves music as much as you do.
00:44:43: For more exclusive content, some behind the scenes goodies and maybe even some competitions, connect with us over on the Instagram.
00:44:49: You can find us at audio talks podcast.
00:44:51: We'll be back soon for some more perfectly imperfect audio talks.
00:44:55: See you next time.